The official FX show podcast explained how the Japanese dialogue was created. The book, of course, was written in English. The show’s writers prepared the script in English. The script lines for the Japanese characters were then translated into Japanese by Japanese script writers who also spoke English. Finally, and this is the neat part, the “modern” Japanese dialogue was then sent to one guy who is an expert on period Japanese language and court customs. He made numerous changes to the modern Japanese for authenticity and realism. This was then retranslated back into English for the subtitles. So 16th century Japanese dialogue with modern English subtitles. “Awful” is probably being a little too critical.
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This was then retranslated back into English for the subtitles.
This reminds me of all the work done on the chess in Queen’s Gambit…which then never featured in the show.
“Awful” is probably being a little too critical.
This is merely one example of a great many throughout the show where the Japanese subtitles, for some reason, are extremely reductionist and verge on racist stereotyping. This problem, strangely, does not extend to the English subtitles for the English dialogue, which render all dialogue in full, as far as I can see. Now, my Japanese is only rudimentary, but I know that the Japanese dialogue is not being shown to the same depth and detail as the English dialogue. So, yes, I would characterise the subtitles for the Japanese sections as awful.
Hiromatsu said “Kore wa shitsurei itashita”, which could be translated word for word as “This is rude, I get it”, but Hiromatsu means “I’m sorry about this” or “I apologize for what I’m about to say next”. An English subtitle of “So sorry…” is hardly reductionist or racist in my opinion. Do you have another example?
TiL people here speak Japanese and I am again awed by the wealth of knowledge assembled
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It is literally reductionist, and thank you for making my point for me, by providing several translations that are all, in different ways, better than the actual subtitles. Even the simplest possible “I apologise for this…” is different in tone and intent and fits the scene better than “So sorry.” which doesn’t even function properly as a beginning for the rest of his dialogue.
Do you have another example?
Almost every scene where Japanese dialogue is spoken. The most blatant example, seeing as nothing else is sufficient, is Mariko, whose Japanese is regularly truncated, and yet her English is regularly word-for-word subbed, even when it could be summarised neatly with no loss of meaning.
There isn’t a single occasion where the Japanese subs are extended beyond one line.
Your choice of the word “reductionist” carries with it an implicit accusation of inappropriateness or deception. That is literally the full meaning of “reductionist.” I assume that you would be similarly horrified at the very common practice of using “I’m sorry” as the English subtitle for the German “tut mir Leid”? Is it “reductionist” to not use “it causes me pain”, even though this phrasing would be confusing to an English speaking viewer? No, I have not made your point for you.
Your example from Mariko’s “Eightfold Fence” conversation with Blackthorne makes even less sense as a supporting argument. This conversation was in English, not Japanese. The subtitle in your screenshot is actually the English caption for hearing impaired audiences, which is formatted differently from the English subtitles for the spoken Japanese dialogue. (You’ll notice that the English subtitles for Japanese dialogue do not have fixed narrow margins, while the English subtitles for English dialogue do. These captions often appear on two lines not because they’re more thorough or verbose, but because of formatting.) It is not unusual for such captions to be shortened for the hearing impaired (“summarised neatly”, you said), but it’s not unusual for the full word-for-word caption to be used either. So your position is that subtitle simplification is OK for English to English subtitles, but not Japanese to English? Why is the first acceptable while the latter is “extremely reductionist”, verging on “racist stereotyping”?
You seem determined to be upset with the subtitles in Shogun, and that’s your prerogative of course. However, you’ve described your Japanese as “rudimentary”, and your evidence of reductionism includes an observation that the Japanese subtitles are formatted on a single line instead of the two lines that are often used for the English captions for hearing impaired viewers due to different margin settings. Speaking for myself, I don’t find your “awful” charge to be either fair or persuasive. Regardless, I hope that you can still enjoy the series. The cinematography is beautiful, the costumes and period sets are fantastic, the cast is impressive, and the story has deep characters and intrigue aplenty.
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Without taking any side, the level of discourse is highly invigorating, thanks to you both, gentlemen.
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Agreed. I dig the passion. And we seem to have some polyglots in the community. Impressive.
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Your choice of the word “reductionist” carries with it an implicit accusation of inappropriateness or deception.
The literal definition can be found here. There was no implicit accusation of any sort, although I’m sure the caption creators appreciate your valiant efforts to defend them.
This conversation was in English, not Japanese.
As I said in my first post on this subject:
This problem, strangely, does not extend to the English subtitles for the English dialogue, which render all dialogue in full
These captions often appear on two lines not because they’re more thorough or verbose, but because of formatting.
The English captions are always more verbose. It is not a matter of formatting.
It is not unusual for such captions to be shortened for the hearing impaired
You could easily make this case for the Japanese captions, and that might have been a persuasive argument. Unfortunately, you did not make such an argument.
So your position is that subtitle simplification is OK for English to English subtitles, but not Japanese to English?
You are either failing to understand me, have forgotten what I initially wrote, or are being obtuse.
You seem determined to be upset with the subtitles in Shogun
Trying to characterise someone as emotional is basic ad hominem shit. I’d politely advise you to refrain from doing it.
Speaking for myself, I don’t find your “awful” charge to be either fair or persuasive.
Probably because despite detailing the differences in them yourself, you refuse to see them as different. Your own (more accurate, much better) translations themselves were all longer than the actual caption, and, if we went through the series, you’d find that to be an extremely common issue. It seems exactly why this is, must remain a mystery to you. Fair enough.
The series is surprisingly good, especially considering the genesis of the book. Learning from Shogun is showing its age now, but it is another stepping stone on from a work that contains a great many glaring errors and outright painful caricatures.
Just started Yellowstone. Reasonably entertaining so far but are we supposed to like or admire any of these people? The arguably most moral character has the highest body count so far (one flat-out revenge murder, one self-defence, one accidental and one mercy killing), like he’s trying collect all the degrees of homicide (if such exists in Montana). Ordinarily I’d take this as deliberate dramatic irony but in this case, not so sure. Kevin Costner’s character is a manipulative arsehole who’s happy for others to do his dirty work, up to and including murder, again. Honestly, at the end of Ep2 I’m rooting for the Native American guy whose aim is to buy the valley and eradicate any trace of Kevin Costner. Clear, simple, legal.
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No, there aren’t any virtuous hero types. This is one of those shows like Breaking Bad or Sons of Anarchy where you are asked to “root” for a protagonist that should probably be serving a life sentence.
The show has enough manufactured drama to appeal to many people, though, and has a phenomenal setting that I am envious of every time I watch. There are plenty of better shows on TV but Yellowstone is entertaining enough to fill the gaps between them.
I have a great affinity for the Rockies and the American West, so that helped keep me interested. If the show had been called “Newport” and had had the exact same plot except they were trying to preserve their historic New England coastal property I probably wouldn’t have had any interest in continuing the story.
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This properly made me laugh. “He has to wait for an ambulance? Fuck that.”
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This is a good sign that I won’t watch it and why my wife loves it. I could not watch Breaking Bad or Ozark - I have to have characters to root for.
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Second that. Never could get into Breaking Bad for same reasons like you. Everyone around me was praising the show, and I literally forced myself to watch the first season and almost half of the second season thinking there might be some emotional aspect I missed, but eventually I stopped, still puzzled about what on earth everyone was so excited about.
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Third that…
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I loved Breaking Bad, but it took me a while to get into, and I never binged multiple episodes like so many other shows I’ve enjoyed. Could only take so much of awful people being awful to each other, even as I recognized how well done the show was and how much more interesting it got to me as it went along.
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This is how I felt about the US version of House of Cards, which I never watched until after the Spacey cancelling. The UK version, on the other hand, I’ve watched probably 3 or 4 times over the years and never get tired of. Is British evil more palatable than US? Or is Ian Richardson just so much more enjoyable to watch? Both probably…
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We rarely talk sports but this time of year college basketball takes over much of my TV time.
We aren’t even finished with day 1 of the tournament and on ESPN 22,094,364 brackets already have one loss. A minute ago there were roughly 400,000 perfect brackets left and after a certain upset that number immediately dropped to 20,283.
This is an interesting yearly phenomenon where you can actually use numbers to show the drama, lol.
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I think the relatively pithiness of the UK version helps, plus the “happy” ending. It’s probably easier to watch charismatic evil over 12 episodes total than 6 increasingly depressing seasons.
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I am participating in my office one and am currently winning with 13 points.
Brackets bust pretty quick!!!